Tuesday, January 27, 2009

We hate Extremism in RSS, VHP and Modi


Enough of the recriminations following every blast and riot, enough of this malaise feel and hence generated paranoia. Multicultural composition of India is threatening its image like never before. Every other day we come across heinous crimes like this or see some of the criminals getting acquitted like this

Every community has its own interpretation of the riotsand like this too This one fact shows the hypocrisy of our media
We came across some moderate leaders as well but their efforts getting fructified are yet to be seen but we welcome them. But the most hated campaigns have been that of RSS, VHP and bajrang Dal. The way they supported the riots in Kandhmal, Gujarat is a matter of shame

In all these voices, a more general voice is still unheard. Voice of a Hindu who is proud of its cultural rich heritage, who is well aware of the vote bank politics where Mayawati opposes Nuclear Deal just because it is against Muslims and he finds it difficult to figure out how is it so? He gets impatient when he hears Ram Vilas Paswan saying that all Bangladeshi should be given Indian citizenship since they comprise his vote bank. He gets even more enraged to see unprecedented amount of media concerns over Gujarat riot but no concerns at all for the Kashmiri Pandits. Unfortunately having no voice in media and politics this section has to unwillingly look for RSS, VHP to raise Hindu concerns

But how is this lobby different from these extremist sections. Talking of similarities:

1. We both hate proselytizing poor and backward sections of Hindu society by Christian missionaries and thereby get them converted. Gandhiji wrote: "If I had the power and could legislate, I should stop all proselytizing. It is the deadliest poison that ever sapped the fountain of truth." . Swami Vivekananda during his historic visit to the U.S., a hundred years earlier, wrote: "Part of the Sunday School education for children here consists in teaching them to hate everybody who is not a Christian, and the Hindus especially, so that, from their very childhood they may subscribe their pennies to the missions” . We both agree that conversions should not happen surreptitiously and Christian missionaries should be brought to book as well for this crime. ( All those who don’t know about the missionaries need to read ‘Missionaries in India’ by Arun shourie). If here Karan Thapar believes that he is above Swami vivekanand to say this then we feel ashamed only

2. We both are fed up with vote bank politics. We equally hate Bangladeshi infiltration. We believe that if India was one of the first countries to ban Satanic Verses, then it should ban M F Hussain as well. Any other act raises suspicion.

3. We both hate tolerance towards terrorism. At some point we both believe that some religions need to re consider their fundamental beliefs and nation should always come first and not religion. We both hate the absence of Uniform Civil code where only few communities are expected to go for family planning, society can never uplift if some sections are still orthodox and running on rigid principles created centuries before. Let us all behave equally if we really wish to be called equal. If we are ready to abide by a uniform civil code then others should as well. (Noticeable thing is that rigidity is there in all religions but the degrees differ)


But still there is a drastic difference:
1. We sincerely hate the brutal acts of killing. No matter whatsoever be the issue and plot, killing of every Indian is crime. If they burn trains and force conversion, then we need not resort to violence in any case. VHP, RSS and BJP have sound base, they can raise their voice through various channels. Let the judiciary act and if it fails, nation would itself decide who is more secular in the next elections. This is a democracy and we need to believe in it. If we will also follow the policy of spreading terror, then we are no better than terrorists.

2. Ephemeral, absurd strategies like moral policing sound more like a publicity stunt. A culture which has sustained 5000 years of heritage and came out successfully from 1000 years of so called slavery need not be worried by onslaughts of west. We need to spread our culture just like swami Ramdev brought down the net sales of soft drinks by virtue of Yoga power. Something which is good would always come out victorious in the end

3. Most important of all, why not to renovate ourselves and spend our energy there. Why not to give love to the oppressed ones and give them entry to Jagannath temple where still Dalits are not allowed to enter. Why not to give more rights and freedom to our women and hence grow with virtues. May be some religions are very rigid, but if we are renovating our own self with our rich cultural heritage, may be we can see incidents like this happening in bulk in near future.

4. VHP protest over the illegal occupation of land of Amarnath shrine board was one of those acts which forces us to believe that Hindu right s are being seized. I don’t think that the present unconcerned Hindu population would have come out of their homes to protest. But once again aggression and burning public property isn’t the way in democracy. Though other parties are no better in this regard, but that doesn’t mean that nuisance should be tolerated. What is wrong is wrong

A common trend has grown these days where you talk of your religion and speak truth even, you are looked upon as communal. This is just a media hype and vote bank politics. We Hindus believe in living with peace, living equally and fighting with unjust onslaughts. But if Narendra Modi comes up with carnage, we are never going to support it but at the same time expect from media to investigate into godhra carnage with equal vigor.

We hate extremism to the maximum possible extent but at the same time we wish to preserve our values as well just like any other community

20 comments:

Chhavipreet Singh said...

ok....so this time it has some sugar coating on it....here's the truth....no matter how "fair" n "equal" ur opinions might seem to some....but the crux is the same....in short "other RELIGIONS have some rights...HINDUS also deserve those rights"....very true...but hey...i dont agree....but....listen to what i'm trying to say.....us solution is "HINDUS also deserve those rights"....i say "NOBODY deserves those rights....take them away if someone has them"....we both know the prob...but the solution u propose seems to me an even greater evil

u stress on facts...here r a few for u to think abt:
1) hindus can adopt children...but the govt of india does not allow any other couple to adopt children....now that's a special right to hindus...but hey...i do not propose that they give the same right to everyone...all i say is REMOVE any mention of any "religion" from the laws
2) POTA...applied in gujrat....100 ppl were arrested....99 of them muslims....1 sikh...o hindus....as i say...nobody's perfect...but i see the contrary here

now lemme repent....i feel ashamed to have mentioned those points...infact i feel ashamed whenever i mention the name of any (mind u ANY) religion

ur statement abt "a mulla not getting arrested on Eid" gave the final blow....i'm ashamed that ppl think in this manner.....it's u who need to change dear

we all want equal rights....u propose to give rights to certain religion as u think some other religions have it.....i propose to REMOVE any special treatment to ANY religion whatsoever

S J Mayank Srivastav said...

Nice thoughts

I too would be in favor of a law which doesnt differentiate its citizens in terms of religion and caste

But do you think its possible, just because u r an atheist doesnt mean that others would shed their belief

u cannot run away from problems by saying that OK i wont take the name of any religion, being a citizen u have to think of problems and have a healthy discussion on them
Suppose u r an IAS, would u run away from problems generated due to orthodox practices or due to clash of faiths, saying that i feel ashamed of religions

S J Mayank Srivastav said...

Regarding my comments on mullah, everyone knows that Jayalalitha did so to appease her vote bank, either u r naive, blind or we have the paranoia...also still now nothing has been proved against him despite consolidated efforts, being a citizen and a person of similar faith, ur feelings r aroused...i find it to be completely normal
Infact this point was said by a poet who was speaking in front of 2000 ITians, he was not having any political bias
he was saying just what he felt being a H****

Vineet Awasthi said...

I read the above discussion
I think Mayank has clearly said he wants equality in all terms and for that all religions have to give up rigidity

But I too agree a lot with Mayank, Vote bank politics is destroying this nation and conversions are destrying our root

Just go and do some conversion in UAE, pakistan and you would know the plight of hindus and appreciate the fact that they r still peaceful

S J Mayank Srivastav said...

@ Chhavi
Ha Ha...It seems that whtsoever image u set in your mind, u dont change it

Where did I say that Hindus should be given more right
Infact I am obliged that you gave a good point to me regarding adoption rules, I would be fair enough to accept that its bad and would do my own research to reply to u soon

I dont want that Hindus should be allowed to have 4 wives as well dear, I am asking that everyone should have same laws, there should be no personal law boards...Therefore it is wrong to think that i want that hindus should be given some special rights

I appreciate that you came out with a fact this time despite only theories, I would appreciate all your true facts, believe me

But at the same time i expect u to be rational in accepting that M F hussain paintings should be banned

Chhavipreet Singh said...

alright let's analyse what u're trying to say:

1) "But the most hated campaigns have been that of RSS, VHP and bajrang Dal. The way they supported the riots in Kandhmal, Gujarat is a matter of shame"

2) "VHP, RSS and BJP have sound base, they can raise their voice through various channels. Let the judiciary act..."


here's the summary of ur post...

"i do not support violence, but i do support the motives of VHP, RSS, etc. they should ask for hindu rights in a legitimate manner."

lemme tell u the banal thought here, "i do not support violence"...oh thank u very much....how nice of u...remember ppl have been fooled since ages in the name of such "preachings" that r nothing but "common sense"

yes, the sugar coating is nothing but the common fact that we all hate violence

so let's remove that n look at ur 2nd point....u've given facts...u depend on data...n that's what makes this miserable....coz my friend u do not look at the whole picture....not because u're not capable of, but because u think "everyone thinks that way, so lemme think this way"

what i'm trying to say is that u talk of rights, but only from one side....i can give u data...from both ur side as well as the side u think i belong to

ur thoughts r polar, ur not incorrect but incomplete

S J Mayank Srivastav said...

Nice approach

Suppose I am an extremist who has been lost in this world amongst various voices, being a responsible citizen kindly renounce me through facts and figures. Kindly enlighten me with all the data from your side, I would be obliged
The moment i would realize that I was wrong to oppose someone else's propaganda (In a peaceful democratic way), I promise I would accept that i was misguided...I am open to all thoughts
I request you to kindly shed all theories and come up with facts and thereby prove that i am foolish to oppose vote bank politics

""i do not support violence, but i do support the motives of VHP, RSS, etc. they should ask for hindu rights in a legitimate manner.""

Yes I believe that i have the right to preserve my culture particulalry if someone challenges its existence and i believe in following legitimate methods...Its a democracy dear
I can give u an analogy here, Didnt u oppose the OBC reservations? Why at all u did so?
Because u thought that the rights of genral class r being seized away
So if a person feels that his culture is being unjustfully treated, he has the right, infact its his duty to raise his voice through proper channels
This is a democracy dear and we love our religion but we r not jingoist, for the sake of a united India we r ready to shed our all odd fashioned beliefs, but the thing is that everyone should participate
But if u want that we should be impotent to forget our culture which our parents taught us and just sit silently considering that raising our voice is Sugar Coating then its insane to do so


"coz my friend u do not look at the whole picture"

I am dying to see the whole picture from your perspective, but promise me u would come out with facts and would talk of things other (I would be more than happy if u would come up with some extra facts apart from usual anti RSS stuff which every other tv channel shows)

Meanwhile you can have a look here at the blog of a person who loves his culture and always comes up with true facts including translation of some of the religious verses, leaving others to decide with their common sense. I would suggest u to read all 25 posts

http://vasudevan-raghavan.sulekha.com/blog/posts.htm

"u talk of rights, but only from one side"

Once again the same prob. I am not asking for rights dear. I dont want to have 4 wives. I am asking for a justified equal approach
Should I support Ram Vilas Paswan?
Is this u want me to do?

S J Mayank Srivastav said...

"remember ppl have been fooled since ages in the name of such "preachings" that r nothing but "common sense""

This thoughts give me an idea that u r an atheist or perhaps hate religion for the violence it causes

Let me give you some analogies
Every year 1st yr juniors die due to ragging and obviously they r fooled to bring pleasure to seniors, so i think knowing all this a rational person like u would leave reciting 1st yr, 2nd yr, 4th yr etc since its creating violence and hatred. I blindly assume u do so

Science and technology has also taken lives of lacs of human beings by nuclear weapons etc. If we consider the chemical attack through insecticides etc, death toll may cross known figures
so should i suppose that a rational person like u would go in jungles since science is creating methods to fool others and kill too
But generally the approach is that everything is a boon as well as bane and it depends on the user
Same is the logic for religion dear, saying that i would not take the name of religion wont solve any dilemmma, infact we need to learn the good points of wht Buddha taught
Or u would still propose that science and technology should be removed from curriculum of IITs since they spread death, pornography and the list is so long that religion might die under the weight of its vices

If u want to prove yourself to be really rational and secular then atleast adopt an approach in totality, hate other criminals as well which r no less than religion

Chhavipreet Singh said...

First of all why does a commant have to be "approved" by u before it's visible?? remove this

1) i'm not talking like a tv channel...if u keep making this assumption that u'r talking to the "usual blind ppl" then shed off this attitude before raising an issue

2) u did not get anything that i had said

3) this "narebaazi" that "we r loosing our culture, it's our right to protect it"...this is making u blind...u're taking a wrong stand on a right cause

4) if u were dying to look at the "whole picture" y do u always come up with facts that show only one side of the story (reply to this point next time)

5) facts, my dear, are not enough...i dont think we can come to a common understanding unless we agree to this....as i said there r 100s of examples of injustice from both sides...all i'm saying is that u're "polar" and not looking at the other point of view

6) now this one has to be rude....when u mention "4 wives" i'm afraid i feel pity on u coz u prove the fact "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing"...yes...i know the "justification" behind "4 wives"....and it was "rational"

7) u want to prevent ur "culture"..."dowry" system, "bureaucracy", "cast system", "women empowerment" etc etc....u want to prevent this culture....go prevent it
(P.S. i can "justify" dowry...can u??)

8) MFHussain insulted hindu goddesses through his paintings, but dont u think what hindus did in kerala did to the "churches" was equally bad!! (but those ppl have "solid ground"...u say)

HERE'S THE CRUX OF WHAT U DO:

in the light of "selected" facts, u come up with some "biased" conclusion, then "sugar coat" it, and expect ppl like me to "change their view"....i'll have to repeat "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing"

Chhavipreet Singh said...

thanks for removing the "approval" feature

S J Mayank Srivastav said...

"MFHussain insulted hindu goddesses through his paintings, but dont u think what hindus did in kerala did to the "churches" was equally bad!! (but those ppl have "solid ground"...u say)"

Thank God aTLEAST U said that M F Hussain is wrong. I have previously said that killing of any Indian is a crime, raise your voice through proper channels. Another good thing is that u know the solid ground even, generally news channels dont show that part
Even then if someone plays with our religious sentiments, its natural to get enraged(try converting some minorities and perhaps u would get to see more heinous outputs). But i oppose violence in any form..We r not naxalites, This is my stand

"u want to prevent ur "culture"..."dowry" system, "bureaucracy", "cast system", "women empowerment" etc etc....u want to prevent this culture....go prevent it"

This statement shows that u know little about Hinduism I am talking about. Cases u just cited are social crimes, found even in China and many other developed countries. They have nothing to do with Sanatan dharma

"now this one has to be rude....when u mention "4 wives" i'm afraid i feel pity on u coz u prove the fact "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing"...yes...i know the "justification" behind "4 wives"....and it was "rational""

If this is the rationalism u wish me to believe which talks of man dominated mentality, then i would feel proud to be pitied upon by rationals like u. Please dont give me logics here, keep it to urself

"this "narebaazi" that "we r loosing our culture, it's our right to protect it"...this is making u blind...u're taking a wrong stand on a right cause"

Didnt u raise ur voice against crimes, terrorism(since they r destroying ur motherland, we r loosing our country etc narebaazi)..or u think that proselytizing is a good thing, if u think so then once again keep ur logics with urself only

"u did not get anything that i had said"

Kindly enlighten me in simple language

"i'm not talking like a tv channel...if u keep making this assumption that u'r talking to the "usual blind ppl" then shed off this attitude before raising an issue"

I am happy that u r different, finally i got a person who has some other data and perspective
Kindly enlighten me, I agree i might be wrong in my selected views

"facts, my dear, are not enough...i dont think we can come to a common understanding unless we agree to this....as i said there r 100s of examples of injustice from both sides...all i'm saying is that u're "polar" and not looking at the other point of view"

Thank God u agreed that in India , unjustice is done towards majority too...U r really enlightened
R u trying to say I should listen to ur theories in light of the facts that u dont believe in teachings of religious people...why should i do so? r u more rational than Swami Vivekanand?
Therefore the only solution is facts and truth

Perhaps we have reached the conclusion that i was willing to draw...Hindus are getting persecuted too

Recognizing this fact only is a victory for me, here in hostel it took years for me to prove this to my friends in absence of media proofs etc.

Thanks for your approach, it was rational this time

Chhavipreet Singh said...

u "assume" things n get happy
stay happy my friend....

it's not that "i have changed my stand" or that u have "proved" anything to me...it's just that u have "realized" that i already did not "deny" ur facts....all i say is that they r incomplete (i'm sure u didn't read the "incomplete" part)

go back to my earlier posts n u'll see that

as far as keeping "my logic to myself" is concerned...thanks dear....i already realized that it was useless to talk to ppl not ready to "listen"

by the way u didn't reply to "y do u always come up with facts that show only one side of the story" point number 4

keep in mind...u did not prove nething to me

S J Mayank Srivastav said...

"it's not that "i have changed my stand" or that u have "proved" anything to me...it's just that u have "realized" that i already did not "deny" ur facts"

not denying is the real beauty of ur rationality, generally people dont shed their goody goody images
Atleast u agreed that both sider r wrong, generally people know only one thing..minorities r getting persecuted...while the truth is that even majority is getting persecuted...so we need to solve the problem treating every one as Indian rather than minority


"
as far as keeping "my logic to myself" is concerned...thanks dear....i already realized that it was useless to talk to ppl not ready to "listen""

If by any of ur biological logic u willing to prove that Lord Ram, Gandhiji, Infact every great Indian is foolish to have one wife, then really i wish to be illiterate and become a character worth pity
What if I say that one should keep Sanyam as well, and never cheat his/her partner in life, regard his/her partner as divine and give her/him true love, no cheating at all
Am I wrong to believe so?


as far as keeping "my logic to myself" is concerned...thanks dear....i already realized that it was useless to talk to ppl not ready to "listen"

Kindly enlighten me as I said previously. I agree i might be having selected perspective as I said previously. What if i say y do u look at things from one side only in case of kandhmal/gujarat riot and thereby justify their enragement....but i won't...what is wrong is wrong, if others r wrong then we should also dont follow the same procedure
Strive till the end and u will get success if truth is with u..this is wht i believe

"keep in mind...u did not prove nething to me"

what if i say "i already realized that it was useless to talk to ppl not ready to "feel that people will always get enraged upon proselytizing, upon vote bank politics""..even a psychologist would agree that a person gets enraged when he watches his religion getting defamed...but even then crime is a crime...no justification

Chhavipreet Singh said...

dude....realize whom u r talking to.....ur "assumptions" r not my "opinions"

i do NOT go by what "ppl" say

when u're talking to me, first try to know my opinions. u simply put the "dumb ordinary guy" image on everyone.

i feel like having talked to a wall....coz u were actually talking to some IMAGINARY DUMB GUY whose point of view u wanted to "change"

u still have no idea of my opinions abt all this, coz u were not listening.....go talk to that imaginary frnd of urs...i'm out

S J Mayank Srivastav said...

Everytime i quoted ur statements before saying my points

Kindly tell me where did i do a blind assumption?

Its ur discretion, U can be in or out

perhaps one blind assumption i did was u r an atheist..but many of ur comments gave me such a feel, perhaps u have told me tht thing personally as well

But i agree over one point, i should listen to everyone, kindly tell me how do u justify 4 wives...though i raised this point just to show i am not asking for some special rights as u were saying again and again that Hindus want some special rights
while nowhere from my post i can assume such demand being made


Believe me i have never seen any documentary saying that M*** persecute H***** as well, or christian missionaries r wrong to proselytize...so ur statement that all sides r guilty was a milestone for me, hence the excitement

I hope u understand the emotions of a common H****

S J Mayank Srivastav said...

Ok I got it
After rigorous reading i found that i made a crude "biological" assumption
I wont justify why i did so

I just accept my fault

but i have been saying again and again ...enlighten me..how can u say i dont wish to listen to ur opinion, just put them

but now u r out, ur recognition that "i said there r 100s of examples of injustice from both sides" deserves a standing ovation from my side

no one else has ever agreed upon this most visible truth

Animesh said...

I won't comment on the discussions, but would like to say the following:

1. Congrats for clarifying that you dont condone violence. Good job.

2. Guess who else agrees with your "no love for vote bank politics, no proselytizing, no terrorism" trifecta -- progressive Indian muslims! I really hope you are aware of this fact. An interesting example of moderate Indian muslims calling out extremist islam and its way of trying to prove illogical things is here [scroll down to the quote that mentions sufism for a gem].

Just like all fundamentalists are similar [my blog entry here], all moderates/progressives are similar too. And _that_ is our community - not based on what god we pray to [or not], but on whether or not we believe in progressive values or not.

S J Mayank Srivastav said...

Wow!!! Indian Muslims believe so!!!!
Now Arjun singh wont convert AMU into IIT just for vote bank politics
Now Infiltration would stop
Now Kashmiri pandits would get their right
Now everyone would be taught equally about birth control
Now those who called sardar vallabh as terrorists would be punished
Now M F Hussain would be thrown like Taslima and Rushdie
List of good things is long, cant recall all of them
Kindly send this link to politicians, they need it more
Now I am satisfied that all my fellow brothers of that religion would vote against mayawati, Amarsingh etc as well since they did monority appeasement
So happy I am!!!

I really welcome sincere efforts, lets c when do they get fructified

"And _that_ is our community - not based on what god we pray to [or not], but on whether or not we believe in progressive values or not. "

I agree completely and here i agree that all religions are orthodox, degrees differ though

"Congrats for clarifying that you dont condone violence"

Yeah we have to make this all clear bcoz once we talk of religious clashes, saving our culture, people immediately draw a conclusion that we are from RSS etc
They also claim that we r not looking at things in totality and when i ask them to enlighten how, they run away

Animesh said...

Very interesting to see you accept the appreciation for having non-crazy views [and stating that there are some crazy Hindus who give others a bad name] in the same comment in which you are supremely sarcastic about the moderate Indian muslims. Not sure you realize the congnitive dissonance in your own mind here.

Anyways, the world sees the moderate Indian muslims, and recognizes them without sarcasm. Read here [also includes another quote by MJ Akbar].

S J Mayank Srivastav said...

Not surprised!!!
Actions speak
As I said, I would welcome all positive changes
and appreciate all changes which got fructified
Why I am holding a feeling of disregard would involve the use of percentage formula on how many actually got out of their homes to oppose right wing sects and actually did opposite things
No one would agree over the data, Internet is full of loads of things to feel happy upon, But if I see things changing around me, I would be humble enough to accept other's efforts and my faults
But the thing is I should see that on TV, not internet!!!!!!

If MJA comes over some national programme, then do tell me, I would listen to him there