These days there is lot of chaos, these days there is lot of unrest. These days I find my fellow batch mates expressing grieve concerns over the intensely miserable political scenario of our nation and these days I find the great Indian middle class having bunch of discussions over the integrity and unity of their motherland. Thank God, finally they have thought beyond their age old realm of roti, kapda and makaan (and girls, bollywood and cricket). Credit goes to Raj Thackrey
I have come across many editorials wailing at the lack of young blood in Indian politics and now when their wish has become alive, everyone is crying foul. I was long willing to express my views over this recent crisis in our nation. Is this something new happening? To start with, I don’t think Raj Thackrey puts forth some out and out exceptional propaganda. Indians have a glorious such past since time immemorial. We have always been a victim of some self defined racial superiority. We represent a breed which is intellectually arrogant. NarayanaMurthy quotes from his recent lecture:
Our intellectual arrogance has also not helped our society.
I have traveled extensively, and in my experience, have not come across another society where people are as contemptuous of better societies as we are, with as little progress as we have achieved. Remember that arrogance breeds hypocrisy.
No other society gloats so much about the past as we do, with as little current accomplishment.
Friends, this is not a new phenomenon, but at least a thousand years old. For instance, Al Barouni, the famous Arabic logician and traveler of the 10th century, who spent about 30 years in India from 997 AD to around 1027 AD, referred to this trait of Indians.
According to him, during his visit, most Indian pundits considered it below their dignity
even to hold arguments with him. In fact, on a few occasions when a pundit was willing to listen to him, and found his arguments to be very sound, he invariably asked Barouni:
which Indian pundit taught these smart things!
That perfectly illustrates our great Indian trait of Intellectual arrogance. We have actually made both the ends of the world meet just to prove that the person living beside us hails from lower strata of intelligence and divinity. We don’t have castes only; we have sub castes and sub of that sub caste too, once again to propose some similar agenda.
I don’t find a war where we concentrated only on war, we always had some turncoat, and we always had groups in bulk that regularly dared to join hands with invaders just to get their things straight. Our so called upper caste served a big aid to British rulers in pre independence era without any thought over integrity or unity.
What the foolish middle class is doing here and expressing some idiotic concerns over India divided. Where were they when Kashmiri pundits were thrown out of their own land? Where were they when Hindi speakers were being killed in Assam? Where were they while our lower strata converted just because the arrogant upper caste never accepted them? Was our nation not being fragmented then? India doesn’t want such media driven intellectuals who all of a sudden protested in unison purely because they were being thrown out of their land of dreams – Mumbai. Hindi lovers are regularly being thrown out of their own lands in North East, a vast population has been surreptitiously converted and did we ever bother? There are innumerable pockets known as Mini Dubai where Hindus dare don't go even in this so called secular and free nation. Wasn’t India being divided then? Why are we raising concerns (and protesting) only now over India divided?
What Young blood! Young blood! We keep shouting. Would our new leaders wont follow the policy of appeasement and politics of vote bank? Won’t they divide us over reservations? Would they ever bring the most logical policy of common civil code keeping aside their vote banks and thinking only of united India?
Raj Thackrey intentions are political and he is least concerned with the proposed racial superiority of Marathi, that is quite visible else he definitely would have followed the silent coveted strategy of Christian missionaries. But I only wish to urge my fellow friends to protest but protest in a rational way, look with open eyes around and don’t raise concerns over issues which you found while watching TV. Think in totality and protest in totality. Mother India doesn’t require parasites which work only with visible spectrum
(I suppose I am relatively simpler in language this time and a bit short)
16 comments:
its good ..
fundoo
Hi Mayank i have gone through your blog and i strongly adhere to the opposition of what you have written.See,the things which went wrong in the past no matter what was the basic intention behind them,but at no point of time one can justify all the crimes and sin which Raj Thakre is committing against the impoverished section of north India on the behalf of history.
We all accept that cast-ism has been a curse to Indian society,but that should be shrink to zero.Mumbai is one of the world's biggest cosmopolitan city of the world and according to a rough estimation only 28% of the existing population of the Mumbai is constituted by native marathi's.But what Raj Thakre is doing needs a greater logical insight.We blame from the very independence that our politician play the dirty divisive politics but ground reality is that they were always benefited by this trait and we Indians give our votes on the basic of cast,religion and region.Time is rip to give a strong and deserving reply to such politicians that we are no more ready to get manipulated of such issues and any politician playing such vote games will never be in the ruling side.Sooner or later things will change but this is the limit,and we must do something different apart from just criticizing our politicians.Every day we hear from our friends from our relatives that nothing is going to change for the India but what we have done and what we are doing to change it,unfortunately the answer is that we haven't taken a single step to curb this
We must take
My friend , you still could not understand what i have tried to say
i have urged my friends to protest in totality
Indians are being thrown from other pockets as well as mentioned,y not to resist there as well
this resistance is just because this time a common UP , bihari has got directly affected and thanks to media as well
first restore Kashmiri Pundits or just dont show partial nationality
My dear friend what i have depicted from your comment that if we protest for this without taking care of kashmiri Pundits,this will be partial nationality as your last line is "first restore Kashmiri Pundits or just don't show partial nationality"
This is not done,it was a serious fallout in case of Kashmiri Pundits but we shouldn't let bloody-minded
people like Raj to do things like this
realy mayank this is too good. now the time has come to so the right path to the media duided youth... Keep writing buddy....
Dear Mayank,
This is a good start, and it is nice to see your views about the need for a comprehensive solution.
Sadly, the _implementation_ of such "uniform fixing" is very tough. Sure, Kashmiri Hindus should get their lands back, and people should be allowed to travel freely in their country and seek employment anywhere they want. Also, there should be enquiries about what really happened during the anti-sikh riots in 1984 and anti-muslim riots in 2002, and what the govts did in those situations. But where do you start?
Think of this as a "scheduling problem" in computer science. When multiple jobs are waiting in the queue -- which one do we address first? The most recent one, where the probability of avoiding disaster by timely action is good, or the oldest one, going by the first-come-first-serve rule?
On in a civil engg. perspective, you have known that a certain bridge has cracks for 6 months, and nothing has been done. Now you notice that another bridge is showing signs of great damage. Which one do you fix with cement first?
These are tough questions, and need quite a bit of thought. I would love to see your future posts discussing the implementation of these comprehensive reforms.
In my opinion, what we need in India in _implementation_. Our constitution is a very good starting point, but with an underpaid, understaffed and over-pressured police and judiciary, any ideas are bound to fail.
Also, minor nitpicking, in the spirit of nindak nearey raakhiye: you say that "Hindi lovers are regularly being thrown out of their own lands in North East" -- not sure the North east is the "own land" of Hindi speakers. What did you mean by that?
hello bhaiya
thanks a lot for giving your views here, blogs are a nice way to discuss
Anyways focusing on my faults, by the clause "being thrown out of their own land", i just referred to all those who shifted there decades before, retained their religion, but somehow the population present there only showed a drastic radicalisation and converted(i have proofs this time). Now there arised anti national feeling since swami Vivekanand said "every conversion doesnt mean loss, it means new enemies"..and thanks to ULFA, ISI and our own governments for not doing development there, the new population found only a single way to show adherence to their new Gods. U would be knowing perhaps that China has constructed the worlds highest railway bridge just beyond the border of Arunachal...definitely the converted people living there would like to be a part of china and we all are here dont even know that north east would soon rise with a demand for freedom
anyways coming to your views, i dont say that solve old problems first, i have just asked my fellow indians to dont protest just because you that topic over media or we hindus would be the most to suffer in time to come, we need a fair approach. Killing of every indian is a crime. do u really think people r protesting that they want to see india united, they r just protesting due to 1. its harnessing their job scenario 2. its related to their own relatives this time living in mumbai 3. excess media coverage is tarnishing india's image...i seriously dont think that a middle class indian wants to see india united when he himself votes for those who talk of trifurcation of UP, is not concerned about fellow hindus in pakistan, bangladesh(while every other day we used to see protests over iraq issue,Denmark issue by muslims)
Constitution can be the first solution...once again i dont think so..here if u r a muslim woman u r forced to follow centuries old shariyat..is this law ever going to uplift our so called minority. Blacks in america wish to come back in main stream, they dont have horrible customs..so there if whites dont accept them then it sounds illogical..it can be compared to SC/ST case in india but definitely not with those who think that drinking polio drop and control of birth is against the will of God...these minorities themselves dont want to come in mainstream and our great constitution has only solution to slove their problem - reservation..its horrible
the real problem is with India born religions, we are so liberal. here only u find hindus speaking against modi...y isnt there any fatwa against dawood ibrahim...y we talk of m f hussain only and not taslima nasreen, salman rushdie...rather i should say we r not liberal but coward
i am sorry if i went too extreme in expressing my thoughts
@mayank: Again, interesting points. However, in the spirit of having a proper discussion, please follow your claims with citations, as they they have more effect.
Some points:
1. I now understand your point about Assam, but do not agree with your PoV about "these newly minted muslims want to join China" -- if they are so "religious", they why join a country of godless communists? North Indians have been disliked in Assam for a long time now, and for various reasons. The latest influx of muslims from B'desh and conversions may have contributed to the rifts, but it surely didn't start it.
2. Totally agree that most of the protesters now are protesting only for media-attention. However, that does not take away from the guys who are genuinely protesting against the death of humans, no matter what their religion/caste/region.
3. I agree with your points about reservations, but it is unfair to cite some incidents/customs to malign an entire community. If we hindus want to play that game, we must also talk of castist junta who kills their daughters and sons for marrying outside caste, or kills lower-case people for drinking water from high-caste wells.
4. Regarding fatwas, you ask a good question. And indeed, there are fatwas against cow-slaughter and terrorism. Now, please show me prominent hindu religious leaders who come out against the violence against innocent civilians in Gujarat and Orissa.
You see, this blame-game will take us nowhere.
The truth is, once you start with a random hypothesis [e.g., "all kayasthas are lazy"], you can start finding "proof" of these things [I can point to a large number of people with a certain set of surnames who do not do their jobs properly], and can easily dismiss the good-performers as "exceptions to the rule".
However, the truth remains that the problem does NOT line in _all people of type X_, but we choose to use a simple formula to determine "us" and "them", and do not want to spend time understanding the nuances.
Please do me a favor. Watch the documentary I have linked to in this post. It will perhaps help develop a more nuanced view of reality.
Or better yet, talk to a muslim friend of yours. Be frank and ask him anything you want [and let him ask you questions like "do you really take money from brides when you marry them? We actually give money to brides", and "do you really burn your brides after their husband dies?" etc]. I have found frank dialogue to really help in developing a more nuanced view of life.
bests,
-A
P.S. Apologies for using the close-to-home castist discrimination, but wanted to make sure you get my point.
I got your point, i have many good muslim friends who send me jokes on pakistan, so i am not a victim of some hypothesis
u first misunderstood me over one issue that converts in north east are muslims, they are christians. 99% population of nagaland(an english name) is christian, manipuri dance of radha krishna is fould only on tv now just because of its consequences. population there can stick to china with a status of free country and thereby have relations with china unlike before, thts the actual demand of BODO guys there. GREATEST EXAMPLE IS CHINA WHERE CONVERSIONS HELD IN BULK AND IT IS NO MORE A HINDU STATE NOW. Y DO GOVT FEAR OF VOTE OF CHOICE IN KASHMIR..BECAUSE THE REASON IS KNOWN TO EVERYONE BUT NOBODY SPEAKS
i ask all others y dont u all live peacefully, y do u focus only on conversion? obviously that shows ur real face..isnt it?
regarding female foeticide, castesim ..they r found in all religions(even in china)...regarding dowry(not found in all castes, therefore cannot be related to hinduism), it was a social problem...open hindus go for no dowry marriages now and u also know that, that shows that they want to come to mainstream. Sati pratha was once again a social problem which got solved within years of serious effort just because we all were optimistic and it wasnt a HINDU custom. reluctance to birth control is a universally found practice in india only and not in other liberal muslim countries..that shows that some sections are adamant to increase their population under some agenda(perhaps)..WHILE HINDUS R GETTING BETTER DAY BY DAY LEAVING ASIDE OLD CUSTOMS
i talked about blacks just because i watched ur video, that ideal concept applies to those who consider humanity first and for those who want to come to mainstream
i seriously dont want to play the blame game, but when even after getting the maximum possible benefits in world under the pretext of minority, getting exceptional haj subsidies, someone is not progressing, mass producing dozen of children, then one is forced to think like that(blacks in america have exactly the same lifestyle as whites, so their case is purely different). why do they still prefer madarsas, even the most liberal muslims give funds for them
once again i dont want to play the blame game, but we have to come out of some extra liberalism, think about root problems and see beyond fake fatwas over things that led to partition(cow slaughter was a major issue raised by jinnah)
we seriously need to think y a mediocre movie like water got immediate oscar nomination which lagaan got after so many extra eforts(needless to mention)...there is something fishy going on all around the world to defame Hinduism
IT IS MY MISTAKEI I WROTE WRONG, THE CORRECT STATEMENT IS GIVEN BELOW
GREATEST EXAMPLE IS NEPAL WHERE CONVERSIONS HELD IN BULK(SURPRISINGLY ALL NEPALESE I KNOW R CHRISTIANS) AND IT IS NO MORE A HINDU STATE NOW...AND BECOMING FAMOUS FOR ANTI INDIA FEELINGS
@mayank: The hallmark of logic/rationalism is consistency. Much like science, we need to have a clear hypothesis, and then make sure it stands up to experimentation. And the most important part of the process is consistency, which maintains the soundness of logic.
Some points:
1. Please do NOT use ALL CAPS. It is equivalent to shouting, and looks unpleasant.
2. Please use proper punctuation and capitalization while posting. It really helps increase the readability of text.
Moving on, I am sorry, but I have huge issues with your points. Allow me to illustrate by quoting your last long comment.
"they [Nagas] are christians."
So is a majority of people in Kerala and Goa -- why don't they ask for separation? Also, my godless-communists argument still holds. We have to look for another reason for their willingness to join hands with China apart from religion.
"nagaland(an english name)"
Why do you need to mention that fact? Delhi is also an english name, and so is Madras. Does this mean we should suspect people from IIT Madras who like calling their alma mater IIT Madras and not IIT Chennai? Nagaland has an english name because the British gave it. Much like you have a blog in english because you learnt it being a citizen of a former british colony. Please do NOT mention irrelevant facts that are meant to insinuate stuff. Their irrelevance only makes an otherwise sound argument weak.
"i ask all others y dont u all live peacefully, y do u focus only on conversion?"
and I ask you -- why do you hate people of lower caste and not want to touch water that they have touched?
Of course, you will say -- no, I do not do that -- some crazy backwards hindus in villages do that.
And _that_ my friend, is what an average Indian christian will tell you [try asking someone]. Sure, there are some overzealous right-wingers in christianity who want to convert everyone, but all christians I know are just normal people for whom religion is a personal matter, not to be imposed on anyone else.
"regarding female foeticide, castesim ..they r found in all religions"
And that somehow makes Hinduism better? Also, please point me to your female-killing casteist sikh, Bahai, jain, or buddhist brethren.
"regarding dowry(not found in all castes, therefore cannot be related to hinduism)"
And marrying 4 women and other literal following of the shariat is found in _all_ sects of islam -- right? My point about mentioning sati and dowry was exactly that. There are shameful customs that _some_ members of our religions indulge in, but they are used to paint a bad picture for all of us. So when someone tells you "all muslims do X", ask a muslim friend of yours about it. Please do NOT take it as fact.
"Sati pratha ... wasnt a HINDU custom"
Why not? The name of the practice is based on a Hindu Dakshayani who immolated herself, and was led by Hindu priests.
"which got solved within years of serious effort"
Um. No. It still happens, as is evident in this news link.
"reluctance to birth control is a universally found practice in india only and not in other liberal muslim countries..that shows that some sections are adamant to increase their population under some agenda(perhaps)."
1. I can claim that the following people are reluctant to birth control:
- all UP and Bihar people [evident by their increase in population]
- all fundamentalist Christians in USA
However, any middle class person I know, irrespective of religion, is in favor of birth control. Do you still think it is a religion issue and not that of monetary status/education/employment?
"WHILE HINDUS R GETTING BETTER DAY BY DAY LEAVING ASIDE OLD CUSTOMS"
Please refer to my link above regarding Sati, and google yourself for honor killings among Hindus in India. Why do you say they are getting better day by day? After all, they are so bad they they were kicked out of Maharashtra by the Marathis. [or from the other PoV, so bad that they kicked our innocent Biharis].
"that ideal concept applies to those who consider humanity first and for those who want to come to mainstream"
And who are these who don't want to come to mainstream. Do you mean those UP/Bihar waala bhaiyyas who populate the gutters of mumbai and do not want to come to the mainstream and learn Marathi? This line can be used against everyone my friend.
"i seriously dont want to play the blame game, but when even after getting the maximum possible benefits in world under the pretext of minority, getting exceptional haj subsidies, someone is not progressing, mass producing dozen of children, then one is forced to think like that"
I will NOT address this point since I have already written enough. I recommend you talk to your "good muslim friends" and ask them this question point blank.
As an aside, I can also claim that "poor people", most of whom populate UP and Bihar, get "maximum possible benefits in world under the pretext of poverty, getting exceptional subsidies [in the form of fair price shops], but are not progressing, mass producing dozen of children". Please tell me why the above line is not true, and therefore why we should not look at "those ungrateful poor people from UP and Bihar" much like "those ungrateful muslims".
"(blacks in america have exactly the same lifestyle as whites, so their case is purely different"
This was the line that almost made me laugh out loud.
What point of data do you base this on? Seriously, as an engineer, don't you want numbers to back your claims up before you make statements? Go and look up per-capita incomes of black people in america before you make comments about their "lifestyles".
"once again i dont want to play the blame game, but we have to come out of some extra liberalism, think about root problems and see beyond fake fatwas over things that led to partition(cow slaughter was a major issue raised by jinnah)"
Dude, first you say there are no fatwas, then when I give you examples, you tell me they are fake? Do you listen to rational arguments? If your mind is set, then don't claim to want to see the other PoV. If your mind is truly open, then please be open to people providing you facts that contradict your assumptions.
"we seriously need to think y a mediocre movie like water got immediate oscar nomination which lagaan got after so many extra eforts(needless to mention)"
Yes, I know the reason -- it is because water was made by a Hindu [deepa mehta] while lagaan had a muslim [aamir khan] in it, and we discriminate against muslims!.
Oh wait, that is against our initial assumption that something is going wrong against hinduism. So let us spin it around to seem that it was because it maligned Hinduism.
In my opinion, water got the nomination [and the award]because it was an english movie, made by a director who understands how to make a movie that will appeal to the target audience of the oscars. Nothing more.
"there is something fishy going on all around the world to defame Hinduism"
One word. Paranoia. Please come out of this and have a more nuanced point of view. How about
"there is something fishy going on all around the world to defame moderatism". If you start with a scary premise, you can always find facts to support it, esp in this scary world. I have lived in USA and France, and noone here maligns Hinduism. They celebrate Diwali in the white house and call a hindu priest to pray in the senate. The "around the world" point is weak, my friend.
Finally, this is getting tiring. I will wait for you to post a new blog post clearly mentioning your assumptions and claims, along with citations. Sadly, it is under-utilization of everyone's time to discuss over ill-defined notions, since they present moving targets.
All in all, a good start. Looking forward to more discussions over newer, well researched posts.
-A
once again i was misunderstood over blacks . by lifestyle i meant same God, custom and festivals. bhaiya you dont have full data of nagas(u need to work on it)
..fear of nepal turned correct, fear of kashmir turned correct when a hindu dominant state turned into a hindu minority state...how far are we going to stay liberal
i could not understand most of ur clarifications as there was a shift perhaps...anyways when we discuss these things in hostel, we end up here only and here is where i prefer ground work and real witnesses...i also have 2 theories..liberal syndrome and percentage formula like your hypothesis which i use at dead ends like this
problem is of generalisations, neither cqan u generalize ur faith, nor can i genralize my fear..
i would not come up with something like this in near future as my next articles are - cries over shit and theory of professionalism(very long)
but focusing on my mistakes....regarding name of nagaland, i used to have documents regarding wht happened in north east due to Nehru regime, but i have lost them(i had proofs)
this yr in kavi sammelan in KY, there came a veer ras kavi who turned every liberal like our young generation silent with his logics..i would try coming up his views at some point of time
@mayank: When I can take the time to write a point-by-point rebuttal of your comment, why can't you?
I shall choose to hold my responses until you address each point of my comment. Sorry, but I do not play the moving targets ["but what about XYZ?"] game. We must clear our opinions on one set of topics, and only then move on to the next; so please do not introduce new concepts (liberal syndrome and percentage formula) until you have addressed my points.
And finally, for everyone's sake [and for your own future writing composition exam sake], please use proper punctuation. Your previous comment had ONE capital letter in all. Would _you_ read someone else's long posts/comments if they were so hard to read? Think about it.
I will post my next comment only after you address my previous one point by point.
bests,
-A
With deference to your desires, here are my comments in the prescribed format.
“So is a majority of people in Kerala and Goa -- why don't they ask for separation”
I am going to brief what is going on in North East
There is clear evidence which confirms that some international Christian organizations are backing terrorism and separatist movements in India’s North-east. These church backed organizations are providing funds, arms and ammunitions with the aim of creating a separate Christian state.
Tripura
The National Liberation Front of Tripura (NLFT) was founded in December 1989. Since its inception the NLFT has been engaged in an armed struggle to carve out a separate Christian nation - Tripura. The backing of the Baptist church right from the beginning has enabled this organization to spread its base. Due to its terrorist activities, the organization was banned by the government in 1997 but it continued its operations from across the Bangladesh border.
The priests of the Baptist church supply arms and ammunitions to these terrorist rebels. Nagmanlal Halam, the secretary of the Noapara Baptist Church in Tripura was arrested by CRPF in April 2000 on charges of aiding insurgents and possessing a large quantity of explosives including 60 gelatin sticks, 5kg of potassium, 2kg of sulphur and other ingredients for making powerful bombs. Two junior members of the same church, who had been arrested earlier tipped the police off about the explosives which were meant for terrorist organizations like the NLFT. Mr. Halam confessed to buying and supplying explosives to the NLFT. Another church official, Jatna Koloi, who was also arrested, admitted that he received training in guerrilla warfare at an NLFT base.
It is now apparent that the pattern of forced conversions at gunpoint are irrefutably linked to the Baptist Church in Tripura. The NLFT is accused of forcing Tripura's indigenous tribes to become Christians and give up Hindu forms of worship in areas under their control. For decades Tripura's
indigenous tribal population has been dragged out of their homes and forced to convert to Christianity under threat of violence. Whenever any of the tribals organize Hindu festivals or rituals, the terrorist groups attack to desecrate and kill the participants. There have been incidents of issuing a ban on the Hindu festivals of Durga Puja and Saraswati Puja. The NLFT manifesto says that they want to expand what they describe as the kingdom of God and Christ in Tripura. The hill tribe 'Jamatiya' worship their traditional god 'Gadiya', who is supposed to be an incarnation of Lord Shiva, in the month of March. The terrorists have issued an order that the 'Gadiya' be prayed on the Christmas day instead.
The Baptist Church in Tripura was set up by missionaries from New Zealand 60 years ago. It won only a few thousand converts until 1980 when a mass scale ethnic riot was engineered by the Church in which systematic ethnic cleansing of Hindu and Buddhist tribals was initiated. Thousands of women were raped and kidnapped and forced to convert to Christianity. The terrorists receive military aid from extremist Christian groups in Australia and New Zealand. They also have ongoing exchanges with Islamic terrorist and ISI who push in arms from the Bangladeshi border.
When the RSS and other Hindu organizations decided to help the Hindus under attack in Tripura by aiding them in reconversion, hundreds of the RSS volunteers were attacked, threatened and blackmailed. Several of them were murdered and a number of them were kidnapped and held hostage by the Christian terrorists. In August 2000, Swami Shantikali Maharaj, the famous Hindu sage known for his social services was killed by the terrorists. In December 2000, Lavkumar Jamatiya, the priest of the 'Jamatiya' tribe was killed, two Hindu temples and one Buddhist temple were destroyed and order was issued to end all non-Christian methods of praying. In the year 2001, there were 826 terrorist attacks in Tripura in which 405 persons were killed
and 481 cases of kidnapping by the rebels.
Nagaland
The National Socialist Council of Nagaland (NSCN), a separatist organization has two main factions. Both the factions are headed by Christians and get financial support from World Council of Churches, a missionary organisation. China provides arms and ammunitions to both the factions.
The NSCN has its offices in New York, Geneva and Hague which display boards with legend 'Peoples Republic of Nagaland'. It has twice raised its demand for an independent nation in the United Nations. The NSCN has its own government which collects money from the local people. One third of the salaries of the government servants is taken away as Nagaland Tax before disbursement. Most of the banks in Nagaland have closed down because of the huge sums extracted by this outfit. The letterheads and stamps of this unofficial government read 'Nagaland for Christ'.
There is evidence of NSCN having ties with the ISI. The NSCN general secretary in an interview with the English daily 'Hindu' accepted that they were trying to create pressure on the Indian army in the north-east so that there was less pressure from the army in Kashmir.
Meghalaya
The proselytizing activities of the Christian missionaries during the 150 years of patronage from the British rule have resulted in the conversion of two-thirds of the people of the state to Christianity. After independence in 1947, many of the locals started reverting to their original tribal religion and lifestyle. The natives of the Khasi hills started to once again get associated with their roots. They formed an organization called 'Sengkhasi'. Shri Rejoy Singh Khongsha, an important official of this organization, at first got threats and later was abducted by North-east Red Army, a separatist and terrorist outfit known to have direct links with the church. The church has been threatening the leaders of 'Sengkhasi' for their connection with the Hindu organisations.
The Church in the north-east is also known to be associated with smuggling across the borders and circulation of fake currency notes. In December 1998, Bedang Tamjen, a Jemi-Naga missionary was arrested for making fake currency notes.
The most shocking fact is that the Indian media has not even mentioned these facts in their coverage. Whereas even unconfirmed rumors about any attack on Christians are immediately touted as "an assault on minorities", not a word is spared to enlighten the Indian citizenry about the religious terrorism that is taking place in the north-east.
Goa and Kerala have christians since long back and they all are educated while the entire effort of christian missionaries in North East is to convert people by arousing them, using terror as a tool
Nagaland’s English name has a story behind it. After Independence when states were being organized, Nagaland’s name was retained to appease the Christians there despite the fact that there were too less Christians, But Nehru did so
“Sure, there are some overzealous right-wingers in christianity who want to convert everyone, but all christians I know are just normal people for whom religion is a personal matter, not to be imposed on anyone else.”
I hope my above clarification is enough, Even if you are not satisfied, go to Churches and their schools, 99.99% are involved in conversion. Its unfortunate that you don’t know.
Regarding Shuddhhikaran by VHP, it is done to bring back our own fellow mates not to convert some muslim or Christian, that is why the name purification. Even if they do so in India, that has a reason behind it. They Believe in a truth that all muslims and Christians were originally Hindus..its a matter of faith, you can deny it..it wont change the truth
Rest of the comments after I return on Thursday
Meanwhile you can learn about liberal communities here
http://www.hindu.com/2008/10/05/stories/2008100561140100.htm
http://in.news.yahoo.com/139/20080717/900/twl-oz-muslim-cab-drivers-refusing-to-ca.html
http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/Print.aspx?Id=33affd71-f795-4077-ae01-a0aac611e8b4
http://www.bhaskar.com/2008/09/03/0809032032_honor_killing.html
@mayank: Thanks for using my point-wise format.
"[your whole comment]"
First things first: If you copy-content wholesale from a website, provide a source link (like this one for a large part of your comment). Otherwise it looks like you are trying to take credit for something that someone else wrote.
"Nagaland’s English name has a story behind it. After Independence when states were being organized, Nagaland’s name was retained to appease the Christians there despite the fact that there were too less Christians, But Nehru did so"
Funny how the (supposedly Christian) Naga separatists themselves do not use this English name, but use "Nagalim" instead on the preamble on their official website. How do you explain that?
I guess the point that we both agree on is that there are some fanatic christian missionaries who have led to forced conversions in the north east. Guess what, it is illegal! So why don't the RSS etc use the legal way to protect Hinduism, even in the states ruled by their parties, or when they had power in the center? My guess -- solving the problem is in no politican's interest. People vote best when they are scared.
"I hope my above clarification is enough, Even if you are not satisfied, go to Churches and their schools, 99.99% are involved in conversion. Its unfortunate that you don’t know."
I went to a convent school as a kid, and faced no conversion force. Also, where did you pull this 99.99% figure out of? Give me a reference, or I shall continue to believe that 99.99% of shrivastavas quote data without having any idea what they are talking about.
"Regarding Shuddhhikaran by VHP, it is done to bring back our own fellow mates not to convert some muslim or Christian, that is why the name purification."
I am all for shuddhikaran, much as I am all for non-forced conversion. However, are you supporting forced shuddhikaran? Do you think the guys who say convert-back-to-hinduism-if-you-want-to-live are any different from convert-to-christianity-if-you-want-food ?
Regarding your links, I will not comment on them since the points I raised have not all be addressed. And if you want incidents of Hindus performing honor killings, or killing on the basis of caste, or being extreme about their religion, I can provide you some, but I don't think extreme thinking is the realm of only one religion. The difference is, you cut the pie on a religious dimension, and I do it on a socio-economic one.
Facts are facts and Truth is Truth
Can Times of India take the credit of mentioning the fact that PM is loyal or revealing that Sonia is Tyaag ki devi. So how could I take the credit
Facts are facts, i didn't mention the link since it was from my friend's blog and i don't want to drag anyone else
" Naga separatists themselves do not use this English name, but use "Nagalim" instead on the preamble on their official website (this link is not working here). How do you explain that?"
Name was given by Nehru and not the separatists, just like Haj subsidy is being given by our own vote bank lovers and not Muslims. I have another story, just few days before i came to know that the school 'Navjeevan' in my village at Kushinagar is a Christian School. Mahanagar Boy's Inter College in Lucknow is a Christian school and surprisingly very few know this.
"I guess the point that we both agree on is that there are some fanatic christian missionaries who have led to forced conversions in the north east. Guess what, it is illegal! So why don't the RSS etc use the legal way to protect Hinduism, even in the states ruled by their parties, or when they had power in the center?"
Conversion is not illegal as it is a matter of personal choice. When TamilNadu Govt tried to impose the anti conversion Law, even the Pope in Vatican got enraged(so much they love conversion) Even Rajasthan Govt tried doing that, and I saw loads of documentaries on TV, blaming that particular Law
Believing that you know a lot, I think you failed make your point clear in this case
RSS has done enough work, its only that you dont know(rather dont wish to)
Hindus would never give money to get converts, Shuddhikaran is for protection only, Give them Million dollar funds and political vendetta, they would excel like missionaries
"I went to a convent school as a kid, and faced no conversion force"
To face the conversion, you will haver to become poor first and empty of reasoning as christians dont touch persons with reason and mind and above all those who dont belong to extremely poor sections. This was the first insensitive remark from your side. I agree that my anger makes me extremist quite often.
"I am all for shuddhikaran, much as I am all for non-forced conversion. However, are you supporting forced shuddhikaran? Do you think the guys who say convert-back-to-hinduism-if-
you-want-to-live are any different from convert-to-christianity-if-you-want-food ?"
For the first time you agreed with my perceptions, i also want Non- forced Conversions. I support Shuddhhikaran since it is not done by offering money, if you will oppose this practise then perhaps you would also oppose the way Shankaracharya inspired the Bulky Buddhist community to come back to its root. asking someone to come back to its root is never a crime, Just like your loved ones would have been asking u to come back to India..is it wrong?
Regarding my links:
Honour killing stuff was to show that it has nothing to do with Hinduism as previously you related Female infanticide and Honor killing with Hindu society only
Cab Driver Case of Australia was to show that even the education is not going to bring the basic human feelings in some communities. UAE, Indonesia are well educated countries, is the condition of women and their rights secured there?
They still use pardah, dont go for jobs, cant enjoy freedom. Even in India, the Gudia case showed that no matter how much educated some communities are , they would still follow centuries old scriptures(Gudia was the only case made open to public)
Even the Muslims who freely reproduce, know every Sura of Koran, how come you can say that they are uneducated?
While Hindus are progressing even after they dont know about Vasudhev Kutumbakam and sarve bahavantu sukhina concept of their literatures
"The difference is, you cut the pie on a religious dimension, and I do it on a socio-economic one. "
Thats the biggest mistake. I divide problems in terms of stiffness of people to change and follow a rule of their own land. I divide problems on their root characteristics while most of us travel superficially. I never divide on basis of religion but u r forced to do so when u see ur motherland deteriorating day by day and ur own friends becoming impotent day by day
"The problem in Kashmir was not as much about population as it was about a failed govt policy that allowed extreme factions of islam to take root there. The numbers were not what expelled the Hindus from Kashmir, the guns did."
That was a typical secular and superficial answer to a root problem. About 10000 Indians live in france, can u all oust French from their motherland even with guns?
You need to be in sufficient quantity first, have impotent govt and lack of media to ignite ousting. Then it requires more, which was there in Kashmir in sufficient quantity. I hope You still don't know that localites of Kashmir only give shelter to so many terrorists and make it difficult for army to solve the problem( My cousin brother is in army in Udham pur)
"Are you kidding me?!!?!? Do you think the hindu temple in Ankgor-vat was constructed for free? My friend, rulers since time immemorial have used their money and power to spread their religion"
That was the first reply from you that sounded like a typical hindu. Hindus went abroad (like Yagyavalkya), But they neither took gold coins nor swords with them to combodia, Java, Sumatra. Please don't write wrong stuffs like this. What they did was the spread of their scriptures and teachings(like Buddha in India). They didn't cut 10000 necks to get the title of Gazi and spread terror(and impotent hindus even now got to the mazaars of such Gazis). Money was spent , but only in travel and living expenses. Hinduism is damn famous for this fact, please don't tarnish its image just to prove your point correct.
Regarding your point that poor sections in india get rations for free and even then don't progess
Problem is of opportunities, do poor people get opportunities?, giving 10000 to a poor wont make him rich Dear. Give opportunity to a SC / ST and Hinduism would never come in between and everyone knows that this is happening. But give opportunities to some communities, they have several citations from their religion that dont do this and dont do that. I would not allow girls to have equal freedom and have 4 husbands and get divorce by just saying talaaq 3 times, I would not do tubectomy as it is against our religion. I wont carry pets(these are just few examples)...and everytime the citation is from religion and not from their socio economic condition. I hope you still dont know about Maulvis who have said that Bharat mata is a Dian and they get support of all those who go for worship there (and they know every line of Koran, Shariyats). Is education really going to solve this problem?
I read this stuff in Dainik Jagran
Regarding Liberalism:
Hindus are liberal in more than sufficient quantity to agree that Babri shouldnt have been demolished
One thing I would like you to do with your liberal Muslim Friends, ask them if they could leave control over/hand over structures(not mosques) in Ayodhya, Kashi and Mathura since hindus do idol worship therefore its very necessary for them to pray at the exact place of birth
If their answer is yes, i am ready to accept that i was some victim of hypothesis and Modern muslims are liberal
My friends here replied in negative and refused to listen to any logic, though they knew the truth of both sides that no namaaj is offered there and it was a temple before.
You are by now only theoretical while i came up with facts of Kashmir, Nepal, North East(to which u didnt reply). I would appreciate if you are coming up with facts like Hindus ousted Parsis etc.
I am open to any sort of criticism as nothing is perfect but yeah somethings are always better
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